Not to be negative, but could anyone share any "negative" 341 meetings?

[bobbyquefour]

I know it is all of our hopes that we will have that wonderful 5 minute, no-sweat meeting, but I also know that it cannot always be the case. Has anyone had a difficult meeting, and, if so, how did you handle it? How did your attorney handle it?

[Icandothis]

Might as well make my first post a doosie!

I wish I could be one of those people who said it was quick and easy, but it wasn't. There were a few people ahead of me at our 341. They were in and out, lasted just a few minutes per case.

Then the next guy stepped up AND a creditor stepped up. You could feel the stress in the room. Long story short, this guys business folded and the bank creditor wanted to know why his business website was being redirected to another website offering similar services. The creditor was basically accusing the debtor of selling his website hits to another business. He was grilling him good with Google sheets, IPs, tracking domain, and so on. Scary.

Now that everyone in the room was a nervous wreck including myself, I was up next. Yay. The trustee asked all the routine questions. Then the trustee asked about a payment I made to a relative 60 days prior to filing bk7, that was over the $600 mark. I told the trustee the truth, as recommended by my lawyer, that I was paying back money I borrowed from that relative 2 years ago. The trustee considered that a preferential payment and I became an asset case.

The trustee then gave me 2 choices... [A] Trustee would contact my relative and get that money back so it can be distributed to my creditors or... [B] I can make payments to the trustee myself over the next few months. I chose to make the payments myself, so I could leave my relative out of it. So my case will remain open until that amount is paid to the trustee.

These are rare situations and most discussions in the archives say it almost never happens. So I just wanted to post that it can happen, did happen, and I witnessed a guy get grilled by a creditor. Be prepared for anything.

---

Consultation 08/15/09
Submitted paperwork 09/01/09
Filed CH7 09/28/09
Original 341 Meeting 11/15/09 (Postponed: lawyers had personal matter)
Rescheduled 341 Meeting 01/10/10
Waiting for discharge... ( ??? )
Waiting for closed... (probablly won't happen until May or June 2010)

Looks like my CH7 BK process will take almost a full year.

[HHM]

Most of the time, the bad 341's are predictable anyway. If you have a half way decent lawyer, he can assess the risk of a problematic 341. Rarely is there any "surprise" at the 341.

[sclay30]

Well I guess I will through my experience in the ring that I had today. I filed Chapter 7 Pro Se and I had my meeting today. The Trustee seemed nice, joked around with all the attorneys and was pleasant to the debtors. When it was my turn I tried to make a joke to break the ice and she chuckled and told me to have a seat. She started with "unfortunately I will have to postpone your case because I haven't received the requested documents 7 days prior to your hearing"WHAT???? I never received a notice stating I had to bring in additional documents (paystubs, bank statements, tax returns) I have been told by everyone who has filed, dont give the trustee anything they didnt ask for so I didn't. I didn't want to piss her off asking when and how she sent it because I check my mailbox like a fiend since filing. She said I can fax it to her office next week and she will try and reschedule me for early March.

HHM does this mean my 60 wait gets extended now??

[MSbklawyer]

The worst one I ever had was when my client got arrested. This guy made three mistakes:

Mistake number 1 was rubbing his X wife's face in it by driving around the small town he lived in with his new "hot young thing" in a convertable he had bought for her where the X wife would be sure to see. Like driving right by her house. And waving. And honking the horn. On multiple occasions.

Mistake number 2 was not clearing up an out-of-state warrant for public intoxication when he got silly after a fishing trip down in Venice, Louisiana. What would have otherwise been a fairly minor offense got really serious when he didn't show up for court and the judge issued a bench warrant for his arrest.

Mistake number 3 was telling his X wife about the existence of said warrant while she was still a wife and not yet an X wife.

Well, with a little help from the now-X-wife, all three of these mistakes came together in the perfect storm that popped up right over his head at the 341 meeting. See, X wife informed the out-of-state authorities right where he would be, down to the day, the time and the room number, of his 341 meeting. They issued a writ of extradition for the guy. It was too easy.

My first clue that something was wrong was when three BIG sheriff's deputies, one with cuffs in his hands, started moving in closer and closer to us as his meeting was coming to an end. It was obvious that one of us was about to get arrested and neither of us was really sure which one of us it was. I was looking at my client -- my client was looking at me like -- why are they about to arrest you? I didn't think I had done anything, but they sure seemed to be looking at me hard. At the conclusion of his meeting . . . yes, they were nice enough to let us finish . . . they cuffed him and took him away and put him on a bus to south Louisiana to face the judge he had so rudely ignored. Needless to say it made my other clients in the room who witnessed all this a bit uneasy because they had no idea why he was being arrested and thought I had done something wrong to cause him to get arrested.

[HHM]

The worst one I ever had was when my client got arrested. This guy made three mistakes:

Mistake number 1 was rubbing his X wife's face in it by driving around the small town he lived in with his new "hot young thing" in a convertable he had bought for her where the X wife would be sure to see. Like driving right by her house. And waving. And honking the horn. On multiple occasions.

Mistake number 2 was not clearing up an out-of-state warrant for public intoxication when he got silly after a fishing trip down in Venice, Louisiana. What would have otherwise been a fairly minor offense got really serious when he didn't show up for court and the judge issued a bench warrant for his arrest.

Mistake number 3 was telling his X wife about the existence of said warrant while she was still a wife and not yet an X wife.

Well, with a little help from the now-X-wife, all three of these mistakes came together in the perfect storm that popped up right over his head at the 341 meeting. See, X wife informed the out-of-state authorities right where he would be, down to the day, the time and the room number, of his 341 meeting. They issued a writ of extradition for the guy. It was too easy.

My first clue that something was wrong was when three BIG sheriff's deputies, one with cuffs in his hands, started moving in closer and closer to us as his meeting was coming to an end. It was obvious that one of us was about to get arrested and I really wasn't sure which one of us it was. I was looking at my client -- my client was looking at me? I didn't think I had done anything, but they sure seemed to be looking at me hard. At the conclusion of his meeting . . . yes, they were nice enough to let us finish . . . they cuffed him and took him away and put him on a bus to south Louisiana to face the judge he had so rudely ignored. Needless to say it made my other clients in the room who witnessed all this a bit uneasy because they had no idea why he was being arrested and thought I had done something wrong to cause him to get arrested.

That is a great story. I have not heard of anyone being arrested at a 341 meeting. Classic!

[tigergem]

That's a great story!

[DeadManCrawling]

Some of you have already read this, after we had our 341. Reposting parts of it for new folks who probably did not see it then and want to see what a truly bad 341 can look like:

We walked into the room promptly at 11:20, in advance of our appointment. I knew there was trouble brewing when we heard the ongoing interview with the debtor at the front of the room.

We sat.

Trustee: ". . . So, can you explain again exactly WHERE the $80,000.00 that was in your bank account five months ago is now?"

debtor: "It's listed right there on the schedule."

trustee: "Yes, it is. However, it is NOT in the bank account."

"I know".

"Where is it now?"

"It's over there in that other account."

"The one that has $12,000.00 in it?"

"Yes, that's it."

"Can you explain why the $80,000.00 is now $12k, instead of 80k? And also explain why both 80k AND 12k are in the bank five months ago, but are not now?"

"I don't know how to answer that. I don't know."

Trustee: "How much was in your business account on filing day?"

"489.00."

Trustee: "This 341 will be continued. Right now, I want you to write me a check for the money that was in your business account. We will be in touch. Oh . . . and I will be sending an appraiser to value your home, personal and business property."

Then it dawned on me. We had drawn one of the most notorious trustees in the BK system. She is the only one who asks for appraisals in almost all of her cases. From what I saw, she ordered appraisals in about 90%.

YIKES. My wife had terrible ideas in her mind, about what we were going to be put through.

Next up were a couple of equally brilliant folks. I may get them muddled, but here are my recollections.

One fellow approached the trustee in a brand new, custom-tailored Armani suit. Or more valuable. Hard to say. He looked like he had just stepped off the private jet and was going to take care of a little dirty business before calling the limo to head back to the club.

Trustee got on the phone. "I think I have the gentleman you mentioned in front of me."

A minute later, here comes the UST, with assistant. She made one comment as she sat: "Ah, I thought you might be the one, when I saw you in the hallway this morning." Not a good thing, I am sure. She sat through the interview, taking notes, not commenting on anything. Just listening.

Depending on which version he told the trustee, and which line on his schedule, he either made 3k per month, 10k per month, or 28k per month. And was filing 7. Or trying to.

Things went downhill from there.

To help matters, his law firm (which I am sure he paid the best money for), sent a fill-in attorney who knew nothing about the case and stared blankly around the room while playing "helicopter" with his tie.

Turns out: The fellow had received a 270k signing bonus from a financial company a year ago.

Trustee: So, you were given a $270,000.00 signing bonus to take a job that pays $3,000.00 per month?"

debtor: "But I made 370k last year."

"You got 270k for taking a job that pays 3k per month?"

"Yes."

Trustee just shook her head. His wife, not filing, makes an additional 18k per month. He claimed that she is responsible for paying all bills and is the main breadwinner. But he was trying to claim all manner of housing related expenses to shift his income lower.

Additionally, he had 3 pages of office equipment and furnishings on his schedule.

Later, he claimed his work equipment amounted to one computer and one desk.

Then a bit later. "I've made over 500k per year for the past several decades, you know."

Not sure if he was bragging, confused, trying to clarify something, or defend himself. It did not help.

There was such a tangled web of properties, investment properties, cash, two houses claimed as homestead property. One for him, one for his wife.

There was one other small matter. An additional 350k had "gone missing" from his retirement accounts. Also, he had not supplied them with bank statements, tax returns and so on.

However he was trying to be helpful. When the trustee ordered an appraisal of ALL property and a list of property owned wholly by the wife, he answered, "I just had an appraisal on everything done. Can I just forward that to you?"

Trustee: "Sure. Send me that exact appraisal. AND we will STILL be conducting our own appraisal."

Our attorney later suggested that the debtor the UST was interested in would likely head to jail if he didn't come very clean very soon. This particular trustee, UST, and judge are not lenient at all.

This was Florida Middle, in Tampa, and our meeting went just fine. The trustee was only out for the blood of those who seemed to deserve it.

[fireworks]

Reading that actually gives me some comfort.

Our 341 is in 13 days. I've been worried that it would be complicated - multiple businesses, some sketchy accounting (not intentional, just scatterbrained). When it comes down to it we haven't made over $55K in the last three years (the years they wanted tax returns) and based on our last few months' paystubs we're making about $30/year now. The two unprofitable businesses have been shut down. The last is barely profitable since I only work it part-time around my full-time job. One house, 2 cars. Easy, right?

[frogger]

http://www.bkforum.com/showthread.php?t=52610

My 2 cents worth.

[mtbc]

She started with "unfortunately I will have to postpone your case because I haven't received the requested documents 7 days prior to your hearing"WHAT???? I never received a notice stating I had to bring in additional documents (paystubs, bank statements, tax returns)

Unfortunately, as a pro se filer you are just meant to know all this stuff. It's lucky she was happy to continue it. Take a careful look through http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/11/5/II/521 --

copies of all payment advices or other evidence of payment received within 60 days before the date of the filing of the petition

not later than 7 days before the date first set for the first meeting of creditors, to the trustee a copy of the Federal income tax return

and also the Federal Rules of Bankruptcy Procedure as amended by your district's local rules to make sure there's nothing else you've missed. This is why people pay lawyers the big bucks! Though, for basic procedural stuff, your court may have a helpful pro se law clerk who can guide you through this maze.

The main thing I can think of that you may yet have to file is your Form 23 (financial management course) within 45 days after your first 341 date. (You may have statements of intention and whatever to think about too?)

I don't think you're legally expected to automatically have bank statements for her, though it's a common request -- did you get clarity now about what she's expecting, or do you still have to call the office to make sure?

[tigergem]

Yes, if you are pro se, you have to be pro active in order to be successful in your bankruptcy. It is ok to call and ask, do you have a list of documents that you want me to submit and when do you need them by? When is such and such due? I sent... is anything missing? But to just assume they will tell you unless you ask, is a serious big mistake.

[jamesd1967]

See, Here's One, LOL!!!!

The worst one I ever had was when my client got arrested. This guy made three mistakes:

Mistake number 1 was rubbing his X wife's face in it by driving around the small town he lived in with his new "hot young thing" in a convertable he had bought for her where the X wife would be sure to see. Like driving right by her house. And waving. And honking the horn. On multiple occasions.

Mistake number 2 was not clearing up an out-of-state warrant for public intoxication when he got silly after a fishing trip down in Venice, Louisiana. What would have otherwise been a fairly minor offense got really serious when he didn't show up for court and the judge issued a bench warrant for his arrest.

Mistake number 3 was telling his X wife about the existence of said warrant while she was still a wife and not yet an X wife.

Well, with a little help from the now-X-wife, all three of these mistakes came together in the perfect storm that popped up right over his head at the 341 meeting. See, X wife informed the out-of-state authorities right where he would be, down to the day, the time and the room number, of his 341 meeting. They issued a writ of extradition for the guy. It was too easy.

My first clue that something was wrong was when three BIG sheriff's deputies, one with cuffs in his hands, started moving in closer and closer to us as his meeting was coming to an end. It was obvious that one of us was about to get arrested and neither of us was really sure which one of us it was. I was looking at my client -- my client was looking at me like -- why are they about to arrest you? I didn't think I had done anything, but they sure seemed to be looking at me hard. At the conclusion of his meeting . . . yes, they were nice enough to let us finish . . . they cuffed him and took him away and put him on a bus to south Louisiana to face the judge he had so rudely ignored. Needless to say it made my other clients in the room who witnessed all this a bit uneasy because they had no idea why he was being arrested and thought I had done something wrong to cause him to get arrested.


Somebody got arrested at their 341 hearing.

[wantout]

The worst one I ever had was when my client got arrested. This guy made three mistakes:

Mistake number 1 was rubbing his X wife's face in it by driving around the small town he lived in with his new "hot young thing" in a convertable he had bought for her where the X wife would be sure to see. Like driving right by her house. And waving. And honking the horn. On multiple occasions.

Mistake number 2 was not clearing up an out-of-state warrant for public intoxication when he got silly after a fishing trip down in Venice, Louisiana. What would have otherwise been a fairly minor offense got really serious when he didn't show up for court and the judge issued a bench warrant for his arrest.

Mistake number 3 was telling his X wife about the existence of said warrant while she was still a wife and not yet an X wife.

Well, with a little help from the now-X-wife, all three of these mistakes came together in the perfect storm that popped up right over his head at the 341 meeting. See, X wife informed the out-of-state authorities right where he would be, down to the day, the time and the room number, of his 341 meeting. They issued a writ of extradition for the guy. It was too easy.

My first clue that something was wrong was when three BIG sheriff's deputies, one with cuffs in his hands, started moving in closer and closer to us as his meeting was coming to an end. It was obvious that one of us was about to get arrested and neither of us was really sure which one of us it was. I was looking at my client -- my client was looking at me like -- why are they about to arrest you? I didn't think I had done anything, but they sure seemed to be looking at me hard. At the conclusion of his meeting . . . yes, they were nice enough to let us finish . . . they cuffed him and took him away and put him on a bus to south Louisiana to face the judge he had so rudely ignored. Needless to say it made my other clients in the room who witnessed all this a bit uneasy because they had no idea why he was being arrested and thought I had done something wrong to cause him to get arrested.


Somebody got arrested at their 341 hearing.

I know it is wrong, but yes, I laughed..

[jamesd1967]

I asked a similar question in my first or second thread in here, about something like this. But it appears that this guy was asking for it.