Chapter 13 Discharged ... But It's Still Not Over ...

[FeelingHopeless]

Hi there, everybody. We live in Illinois ... and five years ago, my husband became very ill and couldn't work. It seems like that's how a lot of people get in this mess.

We talked with an attorney who suggested we file Chapter 7 first to remove the crushing medical debt and a few credit cards, then file Chapter 13 bankruptcy to cover our house and car. So, we did.

Five years later, we've made all payments on our Chapter 13 ... and our plan is paid in full! We were discharged as of May 19th. I was so amazingly happy ... but then ...

I called the credit union today and asked them to mail us the title to our minivan. They said they will not release the title until everything that was discharged in the Chapter 7 *and* Chapter 13 is paid in full.

They said that they realize they can't legally ask us for the money. They won't hound us or ever contact us about these charged-off debts, however, they will never (EVER) release the title until everything that was charged off is paid. They said it's due to a "cross-collateralization" clause in our loan papers.

They suggested that I "drop the van off" in their lot, they will sell it, and apply the amount to what was charged off in the bankruptcy. I'm speechless. Without a title, my hands are tied. I can't ever sell it. Even if I drove it until the wheels fell off, I couldn't junk it without a title.

Since the Visa card was discharged in the Chapter 7 bankruptcy ... and since we paid everything due to them in the Chapter 13 plan ... and since the chapter 13 plan was discharged ... isn't there any way I can legally get a title to my van? I feel like crying. I've paid for it ... and I've even got the discharge paper to prove it.

I feel utterly hopeless. I tried so hard to do the right thing. For the last five years, we've lived 100% to the plan. No credit cards ... no debt ... everything to the letter. I couldn't wait for the discharge so I could trade in the van ... and now? All that shame and depression is back ... I feel just as hopeless as the day we filed.

I mean ... NEVER? They will NEVER release the title? Is that legal? Has anyone heard of this? I've got no problem contacting the attorney again ... but he starts charging the moment he picks up that phone. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions?

[lrprn]

I mean ... NEVER? They will NEVER release the title? Is that legal? Has anyone heard of this? I've got no problem contacting the attorney again ... but he starts charging the moment he picks up that phone. Anyone have any ideas or suggestions?

So sorry to hear you are having to deal with this after years of doing the right thing, FH . A big congratulations on making it to the 13 finish line - those of us living that reality now know how hard it is. And you did it - way to go!!

If you didn't sign a reaffirmation agreement (and I assume you didn't), then your lawyer should be able to file a motion to "avoid the lien". You won't owe anything after the court vacates the convenient "lien" that is being used to hold your title hostage and your car title must be released.

Whatever it costs to have your lawyer do this is likely far less than paying off a loan that's been successfully discharged just to get the title. If you really dislike your Ch 13 lawyer, now that you are discharged, you can retain another bk lawyer to deal with this if you like. You can set up free consultations with 3-4 to discuss this and get their insights on the best thing to do in these circumstances.

Keep us posted on what happens, FH. Wish this wasn't happening to you, but you do have options to push back and push back hard!

[ez2bgramz]

Congratulations FH!! I'm proud for ya!! And you should be proud too.. don't let this little set back undo all the good you've done during this chapter 13! Keep your chin up and hang in there a bit longer.. wishing you the best!
ez2bgramz

[FeelingHopeless]

Aw guys ... thanks. I felt SO proud ... especially when we got it paid off nearly a year early.

Side story ... the first year our taxes came due, I called our trustee and said, "According to the paperwork, we get to keep our tax return since we're a 100% plan, right?" "No no no ... you have to turn all returns over to the trustee. "But aren't we a 100% plan?" "Doesn't matter."

So, we turned it over. Sure enough, the next year we got a letter from the trustee apologizing. They said that since our creditors were being paid 100%, we did not have turn over any future returns. At the time, that really hurt ... because we REALLY needed the money.

But, years went by ... my husband slowly got better ... and now I'm SO happy that took that first return. It shaved a lot off our plan.

Now, if we could just get this last item taken care of. I guess it boils down to contacting our attorney and asking him what are options are. Yes, you guys are right ... no matter what he charges, it'll still end up cheaper than what was charged off in the Chapter 7. I like the idea of getting a free consultation from a couple other sources. I think we'll definately try that. I really like our attorney ... but sheesh ... he charges an arm and a leg.

Thanks for being supportive guys ... sometimes it feels like we're the worst people in the world for having gone through this. I hear people (who don't know about our situation) talking about how terrible people are for declaring bankruptcy ... and I just think to myself, "Just pray you stay healthy ... "

Thanks, guys ...

[arkienurse]

I am so sorry you are having to go through this. I hope everything is worked out for the good!
Congratulations on managing to stick with it for all of your 13!!!!!!!!!!!
Is it at all possible for you to find a different CU? We don't have any CU around here that I am aware of so I am only vaguely familliar with them. But be damned if they would ever see anymore of my business.

[FeelingHopeless]

Oh yes, there are loads of CUs in our area. In fact, we do business at one right now. I should've known this particular CU was going to cause us issues ...

We'd been banking with them for as long as we'd been married. Six or seven years ago, we signed up with their "Online Bill Pay" service. Each month, they automatically took money out of our account for gas, cable, etc. And for a year or so it worked so smoothly we basically stopped looking at bills. WRONG choice. Don't EVER assume someone is taking care of your business for you.

One month ... our cable box stopped working. STUPID me ... I took the box into the cable office and said, "I think this has been hit by lightning or something ..." Noooooo, they said we hadn't paid in two months. What? Of COURSE they were being paid ... the money was taken out of our account each month ... right?

My husband called the main branch ... for two months, the *payments* for all of our bills had been taken out of our account ... then transferred to a "holding" account ... and then left there.

Not just ours ... HUNDREDS of customers were having their power shut off ... cable turned off ... it was a disaster. I should've known then ... alas, it was that last auto loan that's going to be a doozy.

I can't tell you how wonderful the discharge was ... until this came up. Seriously, I wanted to jump for joy. All those Christmases ... with NOTHING on plastic. EVERY gift was paid for with cash. When the TV went out, we paid for the replacement with our savings. I was so proud of how far we'd come.

<sigh> Oh well ... I'll start making calls. See if we can fix this mess ...

[FeelingHopeless]

It's been repossessed ...

Well, it gets worse ... this morning I got up and the van has been repossessed. I'm not sure how they can legally do that ... since the Chapter 7 was discharged by the court ... and the Chapter 13 was discharged also. But ... that aside, there are big black skidmarks and the van is gone. It was worth less than $3k ... I understand that's not much of a loss ... but still ... it was a big shock this morning. Especially since I use it to get to work. <sigh> Guess someone's taking a vacation day ...

I guess our next step is to see if we can get a loan for a new car. I have the discharge papers ... ugh. All this time ... and it's still an uphill fight.

[Minnymouth]

Was your auto included in the Chapter 13 payment plan? If not, had you made all payments on the vehicle even outside the payment plan?

If this creditor was included in the 100% payback Chapter 13, they have NO GROUNDS to repo your car. If your Chapter 13 is completed and your have been totally discharged all debts have been paid in full.........

If this is the case, they can be forced to return the auto too you with title transfered to you.

They have no right to file a lien or repo or hold title (thats blackmail) if they were paid in full in a Chapter 13.

Is this the case??? If so you need to contact the Trustee and let him know they have repo'd your vehicle.

Give us some more info about this....

[FeelingHopeless]

Yes ... it was in the Chapter 13. They have been getting payments from the Trustee for nearly 5 years. The Chapter 13 was discharged. That ACCOUNT was discharged. I have no idea how this is legal.

I did go out and get a car loan today. It's for a used car ... 2004 ... which is fine. I only wanted something reliable ... not something flashy. We had to take an 11% interest rate ... which isn't good ... but better than the 25% some places were charging. It's a cute Mazda Tribute ... so at least I'll have something reliable for the next who knows how long.

Next step ... contact the trustee and tell them that van has been repo'ed. I talked to our current credit union CEO today. He said that they are trying to bully us ... and that it's at least worth an hour's charge from an attorney to get an opinon about how to proceed.

Be back with more once I talk with the attorney.

[FeelingHopeless]

PS - The CEO asked me ... at this point you need to decide whether it's worth fighting. Would you rather say, "Take it ... I'm done with all this." or is it worth it to fight? I told him ... I'm close to saying "Take it, I'm done." He said ... isn't it worth a couple hundred to prove them wrong? Couldn't YOU use the two or three thousand that it's worth?

Well ... yes ... yes, I could.

[lrprn]

He said ... isn't it worth a couple hundred to prove them wrong? Couldn't YOU use the two or three thousand that it's worth? Well ... yes ... yes, I could.

I hope you decide to take these jerks on, FH! They have done something illegal and you and your lawyer can prove it. Take them for all the $$ you can get, and maybe...just maybe...they won't do this to someone else in your same position who can't afford to take them on!

Keep us posted on what happens, ok? We're in your corner 100%!

[arkienurse]

PS - The CEO asked me ... at this point you need to decide whether it's worth fighting. Would you rather say, "Take it ... I'm done with all this." or is it worth it to fight? I told him ... I'm close to saying "Take it, I'm done." He said ... isn't it worth a couple hundred to prove them wrong? Couldn't YOU use the two or three thousand that it's worth?

Well ... yes ... yes, I could.

Grrrr Attack!! Attack!!!

Have you been able to get ahold of your lawyer yet???

I think I would have to fight on principle.

[FeelingHopeless]

Sorry ... this is long ...

Hey guys! Thank you SO much for being so supportive ... honestly, yesterday felt like the worst day of my life.

Yesterday afternoon, I called the lawyer who took care of our Chapter 13 Bankruptcy and spoke with his associate, Tammy. I am not exaggerating when I say she freaked out. She kept asking, "Wait, you're telling me they REPO'ED the van that was DISCHARGED!?"

When I explained that they said they wouldn't release it unless I paid everything back that was charged off, she said, "Get it in writing ... NOW!" In fact, she said, "I bet the Federal Bankruptcy judge would LOVE to hear about this ..."

So I called the CU ... and nicely asked her to send me a detailed list of what I needed to pay in order to get the van back. The woman I'd been working with IMMEDIATELY got hostile. She said, "I know what's going on. Your LAWYER has told you we don't have the right to do this. And we DO! I do this ALL THE TIME." I said, "I don't want to argue. Please send me the paperwork." So then she changed tactics and said, "So, you're wanting us to give you a VAN that you didn't pay for? Doesn't that make you feel bad?" So again I said, "Please don't make this nasty. Just send me the paperwork."

I called back Tammy and she said, "I'm SO GLAD you called back! He walked in the door as I was hanging up from you and he wants your file NOW. But we need to know ONE thing ... did you SURRENDER the van?" I said, "What do you mean surrender?" and she said, "When they came to reposses it, did you HAND them the keys?" and I said, "No, they took it in the middle of the night. I woke up and it was gone." And she said, "GOOD ... THAT is where they made their mistake."

Sooooo, that's where we're at. As soon as the CU sends me the paperwork, I'm going to drive it over to the lawyer.

Here's the thing though ... at some point we're going to have to decide if it's worth going after. The van is only worth two or three thousand ... if lawyer bills, courts costs, etc. are going to be more then the van is worth, we might as well just let them have it, right? Even if we get the van and title, if we're in the hole, what's the point of having the moral high ground?

But ... as hard as they tried to make our lives hell, for the moment the world is alright. I have a car. I'm at work. Although I'm still speechless. I've never heard of this kind of situation before.

[JollyGG]

Here's the thing though ... at some point we're going to have to decide if it's worth going after. The van is only worth two or three thousand ... if lawyer bills, courts costs, etc. are going to be more then the van is worth, we might as well just let them have it, right? Even if we get the van and title, if we're in the hole, what's the point of having the moral high ground?

You are forgetting the $1000 hit the credit union will take due to the stay violations. Likely your lawyer will include language in the suit that says that the credit union pays court costs if found in violation (which they will be). That is why your lawyers office is so excited. They will be charging their highest fees because they know the credit union will be the one paying it.

Of course verify this with the lawyer before you make plans.

[FeelingHopeless]

Hmmmm ... I hadn't considered that they might have to pay a fine. Well, as soon as I get the paperwork, I'll sit down with Tammy and have a talk about everything ... including costs for this thing. There's this big part of me that just wants to walk away and say "Enough!" But, damn, guys ... they repossessed it AFTER it was discharged. That just doesn't seem right.